OK , So what's the "real deal"

[mkg]

I don't want to start what apparently turned into a b!tch fest on the old forum but, whats the real deal with the de-lamination/crease issue or is there a " real " issue.

I know that dimpeling in the foot area is normal even on a 4 + 6 deck but delam and creasing is new to me . I haven't had a new board since clark went out of business so I'm intersted in the longevity of the new cores and glass durability.

I just put a deposit on a new dominator ( arbor Koa ) totally stoked then found the issues on the old forum and now less stoked and more worried . I don't want to pay a premium price and wind up with delamination / crease issues.

Like I said , I don't want to start a pissing contest but I'd like to know what the real scoop is before it's too late.

Mike

[prjwebb]

My take on the integrity of FW boards and EPS/Epoxy boards as a whole.
Firstly my experience with both FST and Rapidfire is they exceed regular PU/PE construction by long shot. FST is far more ding and dent resistant as a whole due to having high density skins on the deck and bottom and solid balsa around the perimeter.
Rapidfire is far more ding and dent resistant on the deck due to the deck skin, and slightly more so on the rails and bottom due to the nature of epoxy resins.
All boards could be made more ding resistant but it's a trade off. Stiff and heavy but solid, or light, lively but fragile. It's about balance and I think Firewire are in more positive balance in all respects than most if not all other board manufacturers. That's why we all ride them right?

As far as creasing and delamming.
Because of the way the boards are built, with a super light EPS core, there is more air inside the core and it soaks up water. This means if you leave your board in a very hot environment the air in the core can expand and cause delamination. This can happen with all constructions but especially with EPS/Epoxy builds. Keep your boards cool and it's not a problem.
The other issue is if you ding the board and water is absorbed into the core, you need to let the core fully dry before repairing. Water trapped in the core can damage the interior over time and cause delamination or weak points which can lead to buckles.
A bit of TLC goes a long way!
As with anything things can go wrong sometimes and if the boards fail in unreasonable circumstances the FW guys have been very good at resolving any problems.
I hope that helps.

[Chris]

hey mkg,

let me ask rhetorically, "what's the deal with the incessant creasing, snapping and tail cancer of PU boards?" I know its a stupid question, but I ask it with a serious intention.

First off there is nowhere on the internet that people can get together and gripe about PU technology as a whole. people adopt it because its what has been around. Firewire is the ONLY board of its kind. Yes its EPS but it is much more than that. As a result, anyone who has an issue comes to our forum. We have sold 10s of thousands of boards, are growing and there are very few pieces of negative feedback when you consider how many boards we have out there. We give every Firewire user a means to express good and bad experiences and are frequently taken advantage of (more later). There is NO place that gives every PU user the place to commend or complain.

Secondly, is Firewire perfect? No. Have we produced lemons? Yes. We are, in reality, about 5 years old and are the number 2 selling board in many regions, and the number 1 selling board in some others (obviously we sell worse in places as well, but not many). my point here is we have climbed to be one of the top board manufacturers in the world in 5 years. So I ask you, if we had major issues pertaining to your questions would we be where we are? No....

Thirdly, Firewire had two team riders in the top 7 surfers on the world tour and the World Longboard Champion rides for us. would these guys put their livelihood in the hands of our boards if they weren't reliable. the short answer is an emphatic NO WAY....

if you want to know the truth, i personally am let down by the shortsightedness of your question and my gut reaction is to tell you that Firewire may not be the brand for you. Many posts on our forum are from users who buckle a board that is 2 years old, or get a delam after driving down under, in the summer, with their board on the roof. when they publicly post that something like this happens, i get their info and deal with it over email. when i uncover user error, or a buckle in 8 foot surf, or a delam after leaving a board on the beach, or a snap after a board took on water with no ding, i NEVER come out to say that "ohh this customer did this" or "this customer did that." in my opinion, that is not my job.

The reason I say Firewire may not be for you is because our boards are not indestructible. They can ding, they can snap, they can delam OR they can last far longer than sanded finish PU if taken care of. The problem is, when you speak with blanket statements and have unreal expectations, then the recipe for trouble is born. If you buckle a board in hollow 4 ft surf 8 months from now, 12 months from now, 16 months from now, are you going to be mad at us? if the answer is yes, then you want a PU because no one is surprised when they ding, delam or buckle their PU.

The testament to Firewire is that we have excellent customer service, we stand by our product and our boards ride ridiculously well. Ask anyone. After reading your post, however, I am left with the feeling that you are pointing your finger at us without experiencing Firewire for yourself. That is why I have taken the time to respond in this manner. Please understand this wasn't written in anger, just frustration...

Cheers

[iggy]

Rest assured that the koa board is not only a collector piece, but far more durable than the regular constructions. I personally like better FST but that's me.
As prjwebb said, one of the main issues here is water inside the core. People tend to not let dry the boards roperly resulting in moist buid up which will transform into delamination. Other very common cause for delam is leaving the boards at extreme high temps. Air trapped in the cells has nowhere to go so it expands.
Remember FW boards are not indestructible, they are way more resistant than regular pu boards but that's it. This misconception take people to push their limits over the comfort zone.
Like anywhere in the industry, there has been some deffective boards out in the market but those cases had been dealt with individually.
I'm yet to see a surf company with the ethics and procedures of FW. One of the best costumer service in the industry... Period

To summaryze, don't be worried about your investment, just show her some love sO she can love you back

[mkg]

hey mkg,

let me ask rhetorically, "what's the deal with the incessant creasing, snapping and tail cancer of PU boards?" I know its a stupid question, but I ask it with a serious intention.

First off there is nowhere on the internet that people can get together and gripe about PU technology as a whole. people adopt it because its what has been around. Firewire is the ONLY board of its kind. Yes its EPS but it is much more than that. As a result, anyone who has an issue comes to our forum. We have sold 10s of thousands of boards, are growing and there are very few pieces of negative feedback when you consider how many boards we have out there. We give every Firewire user a means to express good and bad experiences and are frequently taken advantage of (more later). There is NO place that gives every PU user the place to commend or complain.

Chris I asked a question in the hope that I would get an answer that was not written by someone overcome with emotion. Concerning PU tech, please remember I have been in the mountains for seven years and out of touch with the surfing comunity.



Secondly, is Firewire perfect? No. Have we produced lemons? Yes. We are, in reality, about 5 years old and are the number 2 selling board in many regions, and the number 1 selling board in some others (obviously we sell worse in places as well, but not many). my point here is we have climbed to be one of the top board manufacturers in the world in 5 years. So I ask you, if we had major issues pertaining to your questions would we be where we are? No....

See above , I put a deposit on the board because I liked the shape ( looks like a fun board for FL surf ) and because of the recommendation of the shop and those posting here. Nobody is perfect.



Thirdly, Firewire had two team riders in the top 7 surfers on the world tour and the World Longboard Champion rides for us. would these guys put their livelihood in the hands of our boards if they weren't reliable. the short answer is an emphatic NO WAY....

New information to me , again I've been out of touch.



if you want to know the truth, i personally am let down by the shortsightedness of your question and my gut reaction is to tell you that Firewire may not be the brand for you. Many posts on our forum are from users who buckle a board that is 2 years old, or get a delam after driving down under, in the summer, with their board on the roof. when they publicly post that something like this happens, i get their info and deal with it over email. when i uncover user error, or a buckle in 8 foot surf, or a delam after leaving a board on the beach, or a snap after a board took on water with no ding, i NEVER come out to say that "ohh this customer did this" or "this customer did that." in my opinion, that is not my job.

I don't see how doing research on an investment of any kind is shortsighted ? Again, I asked the question in the hope that I would get an answer not drenched in emotion as many of the posts I read were . I had read several posts concerning what people precieved as " an issue " this concerned me. To be fair I even asked " OR IS THERE AN ISSUE ". as far as being responsive , you have done a great job responding to your customers ... In my opinion.



The reason I say Firewire may not be for you is because our boards are not indestructible. They can ding, they can snap, they can delam OR they can last far longer than sanded finish PU if taken care of. The problem is, when you speak with blanket statements and have unreal expectations, then the recipe for trouble is born. If you buckle a board in hollow 4 ft surf 8 months from now, 12 months from now, 16 months from now, are you going to be mad at us? if the answer is yes, then you want a PU because no one is surprised when they ding, delam or buckle their PU.

Chris , I have been out of touch for a while , but I also spent many years surfing . I know just like everyone else that boards ding and break.
I made NO blanket statement . I asked a question concerning my investment .
If I do something stupid or get dumped on a heavy wave and the board breaks I can accept that, stuff happens. Yes I have broken boards.




The testament to Firewire is that we have excellent customer service, we stand by our product and our boards ride ridiculously well. Ask anyone. After reading your post, however, I am left with the feeling that you are pointing your finger at us without experiencing Firewire for yourself. That is why I have taken the time to respond in this manner. Please understand this wasn't written in anger, just frustration...

Where have I pointed the finger at anyone ? I asked a question plain and simple ! Remember "OR IS THERE AN ISSUE" !
I understand your frustration , I don't think dumping it all on me was was the right way to handle it but whatever.

iggy and prjwebb thank you for respoonding in a reasonable fashion that was the info I was looking for.

Chris , My deposit remains in place and I look forward to the new Dom.

Mike

[iggy]

No problem buddy, we are ALL here to help, that's the purpose of this forum.
I had a 5'10" dominator and thet board gave me lots of fun rides. Hope you enjoy yours. Is it coming with FCS pr FUTURES??
So lets see, after leaving the "hermit life" at the mountains...
Board has been ordered, beard has been trimmed... Now you just need some fins ad off you go!!

[mkg]

No problem buddy, we are ALL here to help, that's the purpose of this forum.
I had a 5'10" dominator and thet board gave me lots of fun rides. Hope you enjoy yours. Is it coming with FCS pr FUTURES??
So lets see, after leaving the "hermit life" at the mountains...
Board has been ordered, beard has been trimmed... Now you just need some fins ad off you go!!

Forums are a great way to gather information ! The only down fall is that they are just text and sometimes emotions / attitudes don't come through the way they were intended.
The board is coming with futures, I was on the edge with going 6'4" or 6'2" but when I'm honest with myself I think 6'4" is the way to go. Also the 6'4" Koa Dom is in stock and has my name on it !!
Ha , I'm not that far back in the mountains.
Board is in stock , facial hair is gone ,sold all of my camo to pay for the Dom HA.
Still up in air on which fins. Florida has it's moments like hurricane surf can be 2X overhead but 99.9% of the time chest to head high sandbar breaks.

Thanks again,
Mike

[Chris]

Hey mkg,
not sure why you think I am overcome with emotion, I told you pretty squarely that I was frustrated with the generalizations of your statements and then backed everything up that I had to say with evidence and not just ramblings. I think that in a lot of cases, people in your position tend to latch on to the bad posts which are in the far minority and to me asking what the "real deal" is implies that there is some kind of intentional misleading.

I understand your desire to gather information for sure, i would do it as well, but take a step back and look at the way you worded your inquiry. To me, if i were a first time user of the forum reading your post I would think "woah" what is going on.

As a result, its my job to stand up for both sides of the argument.

Thanks for your understanding.

[mkg]

Hey mkg,
not sure why you think I am overcome with emotion, I told you pretty squarely that I was frustrated with the generalizations of your statements and then backed everything up that I had to say with evidence and not just ramblings. I think that in a lot of cases, people in your position tend to latch on to the bad posts which are in the far minority and to me asking what the "real deal" is implies that there is some kind of intentional misleading.

I understand your desire to gather information for sure, i would do it as well, but take a step back and look at the way you worded your inquiry. To me, if i were a first time user of the forum reading your post I would think "woah" what is going on.

As a result, its my job to stand up for both sides of the argument.

Thanks for your understanding.

Chris , What I was trying to say and I must have not conveyed it very well is this, customers when something breaks tend to be upset ( ie emotional ) and look to place blame on someone be it the manufacture etc. I wasn't referring to you .
I'm still not sure what statement I made but I was asking in the frame of a new customer what is the real deal ie ... are these complaints just customers that pushed the envelope to far or mistreated the board and the board delamed /creased or is there a design issue? I certainly didn't mean to imply that you or any rep of FW misled anyone. If I had thought that I damn sure wouldn't have bought the board in the first place. I don't do business with those types never have never will.

Now that being said , I'll take the heat for not being clear in my question. All is well.

I got the info I was looking for , no hard feelings.
Cheers,
Mike

[Slowman]

MKG, I've been riding epoxy construction boards for years and heard all the problems but seen none and I have a lot of friends with epoxy boards too. I wouldn't travel with anything but epoxy boards, due to the extra strength and reduced weight. I'm new to Firewire but it feels and appears as solid and light as any expoxy construction I've used. I still have PU boards too (sometimes because that is what the shape you want comes in) and they are noticeably heavier and on the whole tend to dent and get deck depressions more easily.

Anyway, you've bought it now, you won't regret it, just go ride it when it comes and have fun. I'm a bit of a bargain hunter but once I find a bargain I resist looking around after I buy...chances are you will find a better bargain and make yourself unhappy. You're kind of doing the same thing, after you've made the decision no point looking for things to cause doubt and ruin what should be satisfaction.

[mkg]

Slowman , I'm jumping up and down to get moved and can't wait to get back in the water.
Don't get me wrong I'm stoked to have this board ready and waiting for when I pull into town.

Mike

[iggy]

Hey Mike hapy to hear!!, welcome back to civilyzation... Although sometes I wish I could loose myself for a while.
As far as fins are comcerned, grab a set of thruster and a set of quads. What's your weight and where would you be surfing the board mostly?

[mkg]

Iggy, It's nice to get "lost" for a period of time but it's good to come back to the beach.

I weigh 200 right now I expect to lose 15 pounds or so . The surf in Florida is mostly sandbar breaks although Sebastian inlet is only 30 minutes away it's kind of a baby wedge . The jetty angles to the southeast so any east or northeast swell causes the waves to bounce off the jetty and create a wedge of incoming wave and the bounced wave .

Mike

[buzzy]

I use PC7's as a thruster on the same board at the same weight and like it. I have some controller type quads from Indo Fins which I still haven't tried out but if I get a 1-2 foot and mushy day over the next few days I'll use them and report. IO just got my stitches out and itching to get in a surf before I'm landlocked for a week over Xmas in Melbourne Australia.

[iggy]

Try the controllers as quads for the smaller stuff and the AM2 for thruster configuration (tech flex)

[mkg]

I use PC7's as a thruster on the same board at the same weight and like it. I have some controller type quads from Indo Fins which I still haven't tried out but if I get a 1-2 foot and mushy day over the next few days I'll use them and report. IO just got my stitches out and itching to get in a surf before I'm landlocked for a week over Xmas in Melbourne Australia.

Buzzy , I would love to visit Austrailia some day . When and if I ever make a bucket list Austrailia would be #1 and #2 .

#1). Snorkel GBR , I've always wanted to do that.
#2). Grander Black Marlin release .

Funny thing is I grew up in a small town on the east coast of Florida called Melbourne Beach.

Mike

[Fritzkat]

My take, I have see delams on all types of boards PU, EPS and firewire etc.. mostly because of a pressure ding caused by a surfing misshap. Also, leaving any board in the Sun or in a hot car/truck bed/ boardbag (yes even if it is in a protective bag, they get hot especially in direct sunlight.) any of them, all boards will cook and cause premature failure on the weakest points. Banging them up in big surf stress, doing arials, reentries, Even a car surf rack straps tightly bound against the any type surfboard will case stress on the contact points. No Board is indestructable and can survive all the torments. Why do you think the pro's all change their equiptment so often, going through as many as 20 to 30 boards a year. They cant afford to have one break during their heat after the pounding they give the boards. If you surf hard core everyday, your lucky to have a board last more than a season maybe 2.. then you are either doing repairs or moving on to a new board. I know regular non-pro surfers that go through 4 boards a year. I have been lucky to make my boards last 3 seasons and with repairs, as long as 11 years as long as I treat them right... I switched to firewire last January 2010 and changed my boards this year as I found the best shapes for myself in the conditions I surf and enjoy. Its been keeping me in the water longer catching more waves than ever before with the quiver I have chosen. The one thing about FIREWIRE I like is the consistancy of the design and technology, especially with the shapes rocker, rails and bottom contours. Are they more Pricey, you bet, about 40% more but 100% worth it. I have had custom PU's done and no way did the shaper replicate my last shape to my specifications. I ended up selling the boards after 5 sessions at a loss time and money.

[surferireland]

Consistency of shape is awesome, also availability is great. Still love the durability of the FST construction.

[iggy]

Words of wisdom Fritz!!!.Thanks

[Fritzkat]

mkg, no delams in my firewire collection of 3 that is one year old now.

I have dinged them and got out of the water, dryed them out for 2 weeks before repair.

[Magnet]

I've been riding FireWire for 3.5 years now in Nz, Fiji, indo. One of them (alt 6'8)doesnt even have a ding or dent and it's been thrashed !! Mostly fst just one rapid sweet potato. No delam issues, no breaks great boards - only complaint for me, is the bigger hybrids ( over say 6'4) would love to see rails a bit more foiled. The deck rail bevel on the sp seems to work great. Have put lots of mates onto FireWire and none have had issues. Like anything tho, treat em with love and they'll repay you in spades

[Chris]

thanks for the good words magnet.

[iggy]

Yeah thanks buddy!!!! they do love back