Bottom

Haven't surfed it as a Quad yet

Nev, I have just settled in for the night after driving down from the Goldy and have been following your "rapidfire" (pun intended) posts with interest. I thought I might throw my 2 cents worth in regarding the re-evolution ( and evolution?) of design that is now gaining interest with Kelly's wizard sleeve board (although I suspect others have been doing what he is doing for some time now). I thought maybe you would be interested in a FW devotees view. I think most competant surfers ultimately want to surf a board that:
1. Gets them in early to allow time to set up
2. Paddles well (not the same as point 1 - we dont just paddle when waves are coming!)
3 and finally feels like you are part of the wave once up and going, that is, the impact of the board is minimized and you can basically go where you want. You dont have to think about the board or adjust for the board, it just goes where you want it to.... mind surfing some say! A board that is as short as possible will get us as close as we can to this feeling but short is one thing, but short and 20+ inches wide with 15+ inch tails will have effects that wont be as attractive.

If you think about the 3 points above there is inherent conflict, the best paddlers are not the most high performance boards. There have been attempts to try to achieve a small, highly manouverable board that paddles like a dream, but most designs really either fall into the retro or retro inspired category perhaps with some modern refinements and therein lies the compromise. Kelly (and Al) are trying to address this by having a modern high performance board tail BUT by having a wide, easy planing nose that satisfies both 1 and 2 above. Whilst not perfect I think this will be the direction we head over the next couple of years. The old momentum generation inspired potatoe chips will give way to boards that get rid of the excess or more accurately redistribute the excess to where it is most effective. i.e get rid of the 4-6 inches that stick up out of the water (the nose) and add a little (not too much) width and thickness.

I love my HP Quad Fish for when it is small, it generates a heap of speed and is pretty manouverable for a fish but the vee in the bottom and wide tail means you can get too much slide if you push too hard. Its just the way the board surfs and you adjust accordingly, not good or bad, just the way it is. My dominator has similar issues, great paddler and yes it holds better than a fish design but still not as solid as an Alternator or Flexfire when the waves get good. Again, this is just the way the board surfs and like all boards there are pros and cons and you just make adjustments. The Alternators and Flexifires are formula 1 designs but dont paddle like a fish or Dom.

As a designer I know you would be keenly watching and considering design, but I think we are on the verge of taking a pretty big leap in board design by finally admitting what we want, what works and what doesnt and trying to pull it together in one package. I cant wait to get my hands on a Firefly but dont expect it to surf like a Flexfire or Alternator. I would be very keen to hear what you think Nev about my view and whether or not you forsee FW putting out something that is more inline with the dream board I have described.

I like the volume on the nose!!!!. For intermidiate plus surfer would you guys recommend the dominator or the firefly???? For a 72kgs 165cms which size we'll be talking about??? Board will be surfed on the East Coast Ogunquit and The Wall, NH during swells (generally 6-10ft) and on a small wave we have up here chest high

Ive surfed mine with MRTX's w/trailer and as a quad. I preferred the quad set up. As to which is better, the Firefly or DM, its really hard to say. I think to some degree it comes down to difference sensations and whatever mood you are in. both have low entry rockers and paddle unreal, although the DM does have a little more float. The Firefly does have a slightly more refined foil, especially in the tail, and that is better for higher performance and/or good waves.

Right MP. Consider that the Firefly should be surfed about 2" longer than the Dominator. ie I ride 6'2 normal, 5'8 Dominator because 5'10 felt too big. The 511 Firefly feels like the perfect step up from the Dominator.
Subsequently, it has more rail available when bottom turning, with a tad more foil and tail lift than the Dominator so it it going to com back under foot through maneuvers quicker than a Dominator in better waves and hold a serious turn deeper and longer
Either board will go off in average waves. The Firefly is a tad more high performance

Can't agree with you more FW fan....As describerd in my intro to the Firefly I addressed this long ago with the Retro Rocket, maybe not as extreme as what Al has been doing for KS (i'll endeavor to find some ads from around 1992 for the retro and post them.)
ie Willsy for eg was riding 511 x 18 1/8 x 2 1/8" and his Retro Rocket was 5'9 x 13 1/2 nose X 19 wide x 14 1/4 x 2 1/8" round tail NORMAL foil, NORMAL rocker unlike the Pods, Dominators and Fishes. This allowed Willsy to feel totally connected to his "nonexistent under foot feeling" board, but still able lay over some serious turns. This board was too early.
EVERYONE should have had one of these in their quiver, but alas powerful perception of what we ride was overwhelming in the early nineties with the evolution of the low volumed, high performance configuration that only competent surfers could ride.
I was as guilty as anyone for pushing those limits, the resulting in EXACTLY what the pros ALL ride now and have been riding, almost unchanged for 10 to 15 years! The beauty of the retro and longboard revolution is that it made it acceptable even mandatory to have a Quiver!!! Hallelujah!

Here we are now and I have the ultimate quiver. Yeeewww!!!

To really answer your question, I would definitely say that the Firefly is our answer. It has most of the Retro Rockets attributes albeit less entry curve. If like me, you surfed a 6'2 but you rip, you would surf the 5'9 Firefly to get the feel that Kelly is getting. However to surf a 5'5" like him you'd better surf like him OR add volume to compensate or you are gagging.(almost the same argument aka 1992 around the great Banana Chip debate) This is where the Dominator works so well. Guys like Damon Nichols (ex WQS) here on the Goldy smashes it on his 5'6 Dominator. he would ride the 59 Firefly...Our own R+D madman Ex WCT Chuy Reyna goes berserk on his 5'8 Dominator. Hate to see what he'll do out at Pupekea next week on his Firefly..... Hopefully there will be too much swell to witness that!

The only crazy thing is that the old problem of what looks visually more exciting. Personally, and most likely wrongly, I like others still think those extra few inches of nose looks above the like and through a turn air or whatever looks more dynamic...It is all perception and will change like everything...I mean the Quasimodo used to he hip!!!
Listen to Bowies lyrics in "FASHION....Turn to the left FASHION...Turn..."

Nev,

what´s Chuy Reyna weight, if you know ?

I had the idea that he was using the 5´10 Dominator instead of the 5´8, is that correct ?

I´m in doubt about using a 5´8 or a 5´10 Dominator, I weight 79 kg, but I use almost the same flexfire than you 6´3 18 3/4 and 2 3/8, what do recomend the 5´8 for small days ?

zpl,

Chuy is around 75-77kg I would guess and he rides the DM508. But he is also an incredible surfer. I am 77kg x 5'11 and ride the DM510. Hope that helps.

I ride a 5'8''x 18 1/3''x 2 1/8'' Lost Sd2 which is my "go to board" and am an interidiate surfer, 14 years old, 5'6'' and 118pounds. I live in New York so the waves are from knee to head plus. Would a flexfire or firefly model surfboard be better for me to take my surfing to the next level and what size. THANKS

So Firefly, Dominator, Futura, or Stealth? Compare and Contrast? The only one of these I have is the Stealth, but am looking to fill out my quiver with a new board probably around the time the Firefly hits stores. I normally ride a 6'6" alternator, have a 6'4" stealth for smaller weaker days. What board would provide me with enough of a different experience to warrant the spot in the quiver? I guess this is more of a question to myself.

Stoked that you guys are doing the convertible fin slots. Its a good gateway to trying a quad setup.

Tsaracen
I'd go the 6'2 Firefly, without knowing your stats and ability. You will be all over it when it is junky

LB

Considering you are riding a 5'8 x 18 1/8" it would really depend on how good you are. I'd say the 55 Firefly would be the one to get you flying when it is not so good, taking your small wave surfing to another level. The 58 Flexfire would be too close to what you are already riding, unless this is what you are asking, that you want to replace the lost. If so the 58 flexfire is the one

Are you guys making the firefly in a 6'2? I was looking at the dims in the other Firefly forum and it went from 6'1 to 6'3 without the 6'2 option. What would the width and thickness be of a 6'2? I ride a 6'0 FW fishtail now weighing in at 200 lbs and I love that board for all kinds of different wave conditions. Not just for the small stuff. What size firefly would work best for the bigger fella?

nev...get off the computer and go for a surf!!!!!...ha
just back from small weak hardly breaking terrigal..exactly what the firefly is for...to muddy the waters though, got the 6'4 alternator to fly on em..back foot forward of fins using the mid rail and flex i generated plenty of down the line speed..not overly loose from the middle but still reasonably free and vertical in the floaters onto the sand....deviant fin may increase this stoke!!...this board is revealing new goodies the more i ride it...but i'm sure i still also need a flexfire, taj and a firefly!!

dave.....

Dave DK :) KK
No surf...too hot for golf...in Hawaii on Sunday...Yewwww...Computers not bad alternative mate!

Ox
depending what your normal board is, the 6'3 will be perfect for 200lbs. We are not doing a 6'2, sorry...

Nev

Cool. The only reason I asked was because I thought I read you suggested a 6'2 to another surfer. The firefly looks pretty sweet. Can't wait to actually see one in person. Kind of still waiting to see what other 2010 models/collaborations you guys might be coming out with.....?

Any chance that the Firefly is going to be made in a 7'0"? I have an older 7'6" Alternator and love it in better surf. I ride a 7'2" Davo Twinzer on smaller days. I am big guy 6'1" about 275 with no rubber. Been looking at the Addvance but looks a little too chunky and have been considering the 6'10" Dominator but really love the outline of the Firefly.

B Frick,

I'd never say never, but our goal is to try and not overlap too many designs. Have you looked at the ADDdvance - you could ride the 702 easily or even the 610? - its got a lot of Firefly similarities in the outline.

Hi Nev - I had a 6'3" retro rocket bought second hand in Manly which I absolutely loved, I had it for about four years because I couldn't find anything similar to replace it after I moved back West, the fins kept busting out and I kept getting it fixed. Anyway I saw your post about pictures and here is a shot of that old board, looking a bit worse for wear but bringing back fond memories.

Hey Dreamin

That Retro was my best selling board for a while back in the early 90's....So much fun to surf... Fast forward and now the Dominators going mental... We have all learn't that a little bit of volume doesn't go astray, as long as the tail is not too dam wide!!
tanks for tha memories mate.

Hi Nev,

Yep I had a Dominator and loved it (sacrificed to Huey at North Point, Gracetown) I surfed it quad from one foot Perth slop to decent Bali and it went brilliant. I'm on a Stealth at the moment, I actually ordered it while I still had the Dom thinking the thinner tail might be good to step up to. Only had a few surfs on the Stealth and it's certainly quick and snappy but I'm still getting used to it. I miss my Dom but now I don't know what to pair with the Stealth, Dom or Firefly or even Quadfish?

Love the one you are with man....If you loved Dominating why sacrifice that love to another....

Peace

Sorry mate, with a pseudonym like Dreamin, I can't help myself!

God I love Northpoint.... Had some of the most CRAZY surfs there in the 70's...a mix between Burleigh, Honolua bowl and Shipsterns.
I can see how a Dominator at small NP would go nuts, due to the unpredictable nature of that wave. Immediate acceleration, but stable and still able go square and take advantage of thos bowls and lumps etc.

Question for you and others? I surfed my 5'8 DM as a thruster and LOVED it..Never have been a quadman, Man, but have been surfing mine since inception as one. Silly that I had not test 3 fins but it felt so much more direct for me.

What is the consensus from those who have tried, 3 or 4? (I know this question has been raised previously, but I wanna address it again.)

A question for Dreamin (or maybe Nev?)

On what waves did you ride your Dominator in Bali? and how did you find it went?
The reason I ask is that I'm off to Indo on my annual trip and I'm considering taking my Dominator.

I'd really value your comments

The thing about the Dominator, unlike wider tail Fishes, is that you can pivot off the tail when you have your back foot right over the fins, giving you the ability to go square off the bottom/top...BUT when you want length through a turn like on an Indo wall, you can use front foot rail line drive that the fuller nose outline gives you (same turn/amount of rail in the water as if you were on your 4" longer normal board ). If the tail was "Fishish", at this point the tail would drift causing you to back of the front foot pressure,resulting in you nursing your turns...Not good in INDO!..

This is why the Dominator seems to go so well, for so many abilities in so many conditions. In junk it is free, easy, quick, yet tight and directional...yet it still have enough drive to handle mid range waves. The only conditions I feel the Dom lacks in is peaky, bumpy but solid waves where your more foiled normal board would excel.
I know competent surfers who have surfed 6ft + G Land on their Dominator, and were amazed..

GO FOR IT MATE! Your Dominator will go nuts in most everything Indo will throw at you under 4 to 5 ft....

Sam

I surfed the Dominator Kuta reefs, Balian and Canngu. A local I was with reckoned 10 foot faces at Balian, definitely head high and Dom went brilliantly there and on the Kuta reefs from waist to head high, tubes turns the lot. Only felt a bit thick one day North end of Canngu in OH waves that peaked for a fast take off but then turned into big flat open faces backhand, by the time I shed enough speed to sink the tail I was out on the flats (might just be my weak pegs), however it went great in hollow waves and the quad holds beautifully and sets high, paddles in easily and is stable but loose. I surfed my conventional 6'6 board at Ulus but I think the Dom probably would have gone okay there to. I'm with Nev, it will go great there 4-5ft

Nev

Not sure about three really, I tried thruster set up first time in small surf and went fine but felt a little stiffer than I hoped. I changed to quad and never changed back, I'm 6'2 85K 50YO and went for the 6'4 Dom on the advice of the FW guys in Currumbin, that seems like a lot of board compared to what you and other guys are riding and the volume was up on what I was riding before so I probably needed all the looseness I could get but actually the 64 went great, flew across dead sections and was more supple than anything I'd been on before, partly of course because of the speed. What you said about the Dom tail, rail outline combination working in different conditions makes a lot of sense to me, off the tail in small conditions and leaning on the rail for longer turns, I guess this is why it is so forgiving plus I think that tail goes perfect quad because like you said it smoothes out the issues of the problems of the fishish tail. I'm on a 6'4 stealth now and it goes fast and snappy but not as forgiving.

Dreamin and Nev

Thanks for your comments

Sam

Yeah Nev love my dominator as both. Find the accelerator is too good as a quad when I am at the beaches and I think the placement of the trailers make it unbeatable for down the line speed. In hollow beach break and weaker summer days, its quad all day. If its a peeling, clean point though, I now go with a thruster without thinking about it. I live in Maine so the added weight of a 6/5 is offset by the volume and the round tail makes going from rail to rail feel super buttery. Gotta love riding a 5'8 on waist high peelers with the ability to turn like your board is 18 1/4". Plus its easier to throw water for me on a thruster and where i come from, a rooster tail is like currency.

"A roster tail is like currency"...
Tell me mate...would your girl, wife, boyfriend, (you Maine-ians are known to be a bit weird, Ha! only kidding) know what you are talking about if you thew that line at them... we have some great colloquialisms in our game, eh!
Too funny.

The 5 fin set up is a no brainer eh! It is soooo good to be able to mix it up on a whim! Cant wait for the points to start working here to get my Dominator as a Quad, on the rockbreak at Burleigh. O.M.G....The SPEEEEED!!!

So, you can only have one board, what would you pick?
Or on a slightly easier note, Firefly or Dominator, or are they a world apart?

If you have ridden Fishes you know that it is more about the front foot drive you get due to the volume/resistance that pushes back at you when driving forward through turns, keeping that rail in the water.(narrow nose tends to bury earlier, therefore you have to surf more off the tail)
The main thing lacking in a Fish is vertical drive/squirt in the pocket, due to usually excessive the tail width...You gotta go out wide and loop through your turns. With the Firefly I reduced the volume, but maintained the greater percentage of volume forward.(the foil or profile is unusual, but functional) Then I reduced the outline/tail width so that the wide point is clearly forward. This enables the board to be more in control in the pocket allowing more vertical surfing from the narrower drivey tail. However, when generating speed and surfing the flatter waves, that front foot volume/resistance keeps the board moving free and fast. I reckon the Firefly will be great for front foot surfers (especially older guys who learn't on singles), and guys who love a Fish but want a bit more drive. AND anyone else that wants to try something different!!. When avaliable, DEMO one and drop us some feedback.

The Dominator, in short, is a tad more like a normal board in its DNA and is best surfed off the tail. The more you jam over the fins, the more control you will have through turns. The volume under back foot allows this and, due to the flatter tail rocker and volume carried evenly forward, the board is quite predictable.

So...If I had to choose, my normal board being a 6'2" Thruster (I am 70K). I choose the Dominator. BUT I have also a single fin DNA, so I do like the Firefly too...I have a 5'11 but want to try the 5'9"... For me it is fair to say the jury is still out. For you? If you have never surfed or don't like Fishes and missed Singles then go the DOM!

I used to love riding a twiny but picked of a bunch of bad habits which were a problem when I got back on a shortboard. Too much front foot and too far forward being the main problem.
It's good for going fast, not so good for turns.
It sounds like the firefly could be right up my street though.

Nev, any thoughts on the diamond tail vs the swallow on the Firefly? The photo I saw of the diamond just looked right. I would assume the diamond would be a bit looser and quicker and hold less well.

The diamond will have a tad less rail to drive off and a tad move resistance (+drive) due to the fact that there is more foam under foot. It is so marginal though , that I would not throw too much weight on the difference in performance between the two.... If anything I feel that it will surf a little tighter and a bit more vertical...Just get stoked on it and keep ripping Rob!

One more question. What are the bottom contours like on the Firefly? Any concave through the middle or vee off the tail?

Yep...exactly as you guessed Rob...3mm or 1/8" concave under you chest running out to a slight vee through the last 6", which gets that swallow feeling frrreeeee...!

Howzit Bru

I have been riding a Dominator 6'4" for tha past few months and have been loving it. I have ridden it in crappy waves (like the uk) to Morocco and South Africa. The board goes really well in "fatish" waves, but i found that riding steeper more sucky waves i am tending to dig the front edge of the nose, or on take off nose diving quite a bit (when its hollow).
My question really is, how does the Firefly compare to the Dominator. Would it be a better option for steeper waves than the Dominator? (PS im 6'2" and 100kg's).... Or should i go for a shorter Dominator?

Cheers

both the DM and FY have thicker foils, low entry rockers and flatter rockers throughout. - that's what makes them paddle fast and ride insane in softer waves. The tradeoff is a lot of board in hollowr waves - especially if you're riding the DM604, as based on yor height and weight, you could be on the DM602 - but even then, these boasrds are not desgined for sucking waves.

The FY has a slightly wider nose than the DM, so its not really a solution for what you're describing. If you want to maximize performance from 0-6 feet and across all waves conditions, you really need two boards with very different rockers and outlines. I'd suggest looking at the FE604 or AR604 for when its headhigh or bigger and hollow.

Mark, whats the latest on the Firefly arrival in aus? and have you ridden one yet and how did it go if you did?

Not sure exactly when Oz is getting them, I'd estimate before the end of Feb at the latest. I've ridden my 511 a bunch and it fits right between my DM510 and my FE602. I like the fuller nose and low entry rocker for paddling and drive down the line, and the slightly more refined foil than the DM helps when its +4'. Nev has a long post on the forum about it if you have not already read it.

http://www.firewiresurfboards.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=280&page=1#Item_11

Where do you usually surf, markp? I would love to go for a paddle with you, Chuy, Nev or any of the FW forum members. We should have a FW fish fry or a FW something fry because I would love to meet and surf with a lot of the great people I have met on this forum. Cheers!

Damn thats the worst thread hijack ever Ox... ha.

But that would be cool

Didn't mean to hijack, so let the Firefly discussion resume.

Just bustin' your stones Ox... lol Firefly looks better the more I look at it. Once I get on one then I can comment.

hey everyone, nev, mark and co,
just wondering how much different the firefly is to the futura ?

hey guys...been out of forum action for a bit

The Firefly is a LOT different. Bottom line is that the Futura has a contemporary bottom rocker and thickness distribution, just a fuller outline. You'd surf this as an extension of your normal board in less than god surf, or if you were a bigger guy wanting to ride 1 to 2" shorter, like Taj's coach,John Gannon(88k and 5'11), who rides the 6'2" Futura and loves it . The Firefly should be surfed 4" shorter and will perform like a Fish but with much more drive in the pocket. I surfed mine in great waves at Yallingup West Oz 54 days ago 4 to 5 ft, bit fat but so rippable and my 5'11 firefly was PERFECT for those waves. It is defiantly a second board in the quiver board.

hey nev thanks for that,

I have a 6'2 futura, 6'4 flexfire, and have sold my 5'10 qaudfish(hp)
I'm looking at replacing my 5'10 with either a firefly 6'1 or a dominator 6'0
i'm 88 kg and 6'0, and can't decide ?
I found the quad fish great, and very fast down the line, but it didn't paddle very well for my weight,
but i loved having a board that short and wide in the nose, as it was so easy to get moving. I'm more of a front foot surfer ?

OK at 88K and 6'0 I would get a 5'10 Dominator or a 5'11 Firefly. Why? because if you can surf the 6'2 Futura you will rip on these lengths. Taj's coach John Gannon is the same as you and ironically rides exactly the same boards! He loves the 5'10 and I know he would like the 5'11 firefly.
I am a front foot surfer and ride the 5'8 Dom which is great, and the 5'11 Firefly, however like everyone I am hanging out for them to arrive so I can try the 5'9 for me. The Firefly hypothetically should suit more front foot pressure. but unlike the Quadfish it has good paddle and lots of off the tail squirt!.