Mark

you'll notice i made this discussion a "sticky" meaning it will always stay on top ... i figure it's important enough a discussion to warrant that.

should we move this to the "technology" section instead of general?

tech

Topic: Fins not included.

Transfered over from the blog: My name is Adam. I own an alternator and haven’t surfed a better board yet.

Everyone is different and prefers one type of fin over another. By giving us fins with each board, you are taking away the only thing we can customize on your already expensive boards. It is a great idea that you stopped giving fins with your boards. Depending on where or what I am surfing, I have different RFC fins to help me out. It really does make a difference to switch out fins. I’m glad you’re looking out for our dusty wallets.

Thanks,

Adam

Mean Green (transferred over from the blog)

I have owned about 6 firewires. I now only own one due to the fact that not all your standard dims fit what I am looking for. There are greater variances in size than just and 1/8 or an 1/16. Take for instance the 6′6″ Flexfire step up. The tail when I measured it was 12″3/4. I normally ride a 6′6″ step up with a 13″3/4 tail. That’s an inch difference. I can’t make that up by trying a difference size or model.

I’d rather buy a board that won’t last a long but will perform the way I want it to. I have a Merrick XTR right now with the measurements I want. If I can’t get a Firewire in the dims I want I’d rather go for a custom order XTR or EPS from CI instead. It will definitely last a lot longer than a standard PU board, maybe not as long as a Firewire. But I’m not going to sacrafice performance. I agree that your technology is the best out there, but your standard dims do not fit everyone. Even with the new expanded line that you just released recently. I really hope you guys come through and do customs sooner rather than later. Keep in mind my 6′2″ Flexfire is pretty much one of the best boards I have ever owned. Keep up the good work but please be a little more flexible with your customers.

MattySF (transferred over from the blog)

IMO, the prevailing dogma that surfboards must be custom shaped is hokum. I challenge someone to name me one other sport where participants, even at the professional level, require each individual piece of equipment to be custom built. From golfers, to skiers, to snowboarders, to tennis players… all of them are able to perform at the professional level on OEM equipment. Sure there is some individual fine tuning and/or modification, but at its core, the equipment for these sports is more or less off the rack.

As far as I can see the only benefit of maintaining this culture of customization within surfing is that perhaps the constant impetus to advance design; which I don’t want to underplay - that’s a big deal! Certainly skiing suffered tremendously for years from having ski manufacturers drag their feet when it came to advancing design. The flip side to that coin is that ski/snowboard, golf, tennis, have all outpaced surfing when it comes to making advancements in construction. Let’s face it - had Clark foam not gone out of business, most of us would still be on the same PU technology that we’ve been anchored to for the last 40 years.

Kudos to Firewire for making (what I believe is) tremendous advances in surfboard construction. That, married with a willingness to incorporate and offer a wide range of design options, seems like a win-win opportunity for the surfing community.

the.n02 (transferred over from the blog)

i am ready for your custom program…i am not sure if i’ll be able to afford it>
a surfboard is hardly a VW, my point being how do you make a peoples board?
if you hadn’t noticed body types and centers of gravity, styles etc. can vary significantly between two people of relatively similar body size, much like the wetsuit sizing debacle in the US.
can you do it in a timely fashion without the de-lamination/discoloration issues you had a few years back?
will it be costly?
will it have those shitty NEV noses?
finally will it be any more eco-friendly than your current lines?
are you really that eco-friendly?

Markp (transferred from the blog)

the.n02,

You’ll notice we have a number of different foils, shapes and dimensions within the same board length, and we list the volume of each as a buoyancy indicator, so we understand the problem you describe In fact, that is one of our arguments we make that for many surfers, they’re better off putting various boards under their arm rather than ordering a custom board sight unseen.

When it comes to someone’s style of surfing, the individual has to factor that in.

Time frames: Customs will take 8-10 weeks from time of order, similar to some other top brands.

Cost of a Custom: $75.00 above regular retail.

Shitty Nev noses: I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Eco-friendly: That is a relative term. Are we building 100% recyclable surfboard? - no. But when compared to PU foam and resins, our boards are 50 times less toxic. (2% of the VOC’s , volatile organic compounds)

Meangreen (transferred from the blog)

Mark thanks for your reply. I certainly respect what you guys are doing and know that you have the best technology out there. And I am glad that you guys are going to do some customs this summer. I’ll be one of your first customers I am sure.

Benjamin (transferred from the blog) I think STOCK boards is definitely the way to go. Unless you are building a long term relationship (min. 10yrs) with your shaper, it is unlikely that they will build you a good board on their first try, or second or third.

Designing a surfboard foil (including fins) is one of the most difficult design problems today. I’ve engineered buildings, and I work with people who engineer components for jets. A surfboard is the only structure that I know of that goes from complete submersion, to a planing hull, then to a displacement hull, then to airborne foil (aerial manuevers) AND! has to move on an ever changing elevated surface of liquid. From an engineering standpoint, designing a 747 is much easier. If a shaper just produces one magic foil in their lifetime, they are F’ing brilliant. Few do.

If you think that any professional shaper can produce a good custom surfboard on their first try, you’ve probably never ridden a board that is truly dialed in.

I think it’s fine that Firewire is doing this custom program, if their goal is only to capture a certain market. However, it seems unlikely that this will advance the state of the art. I think they will benefit the most people by focusing on the quiver that they currently have and constantly and persistently refining it. This is a lifelong pursuit for those dedicated to improving the surfing experience.

Markp (transferred from the blog)

Ben,

You make good points. Keep in mind our ‘custom’ program will not include any changes to our existing rockers, bottom contours or the proportion of the foils, but simply the ability to tweak the width and thickness on an existing model if you think you need to.

Back to your point, before Firewire, I thought I had a set of custom dimensions, but I soon found out that the enhanced performance of the technology more than offset the fact that I wanted a AR602 at 18 3/4″ instead of the stock 19. And I think that’s true for most people within a reasonable range of incremental dimensions.

As our production capability has expanded, we can now offer those slight variances, but the fundamental design principles built into each model will remain intact. For example, if you wanted an AR602 that was 20″ wide, we’d suggest you try the 6′2″ Futura or go fully custom with someone else, as such a significant change to the wide point would require a complete overall of the AR design.

Transferred over from the blog:

tsaracen
Submitted on 2009/05/13 at 9:40am
Hey Mark, Ive been enjoying your boards for a couple of years now. Im happy to see that you started posting volumes in cubic liters on your website. I find it really helpful because I can make future purchase decisions based on board volume. (i.e.- my flexfire has x amount of volume, my alternator has y - this board has z. Will it float me like I think it will?) I wish more board companies would do the same. My question is:
Ive recently bought a Lost Stealth Firewire board and I was curious what the volumes are for both this model and the F1? How does the Stealth compare to the Dominator?
Thanks for the input!

MarkP
Submitted on 2009/05/13 at 10:08am
I’ll get all the LOST volumes from our CAD guy and post in the next day or so.

MarkP
Submitted on 2009/05/13 at 7:09pm
LOST FST/Stealth volumes:
5′8″ 25.9 L
5′10″ 27.8 L
6′0″ 30.5 L
6′2″ 34.1 L
6′4″ 38.5 L

F-1 Volumes:
510Q 22.7 L
511Q 24.0 L
600Q 24.7 L
601Q 26.2 L
603Q 29.7 L
605Q 33.9 L

auburnham
Submitted on 2009/05/14 at 11:33am
Will you guys have some Dominators to demo at Sacred Craft this weekend?

MarkP
Submitted on 2009/05/14 at 12:51pm
Yes. Had to hand over my own 5′10″ as they’ve in short supply. Chuy will be up there With a full demo fleet.

tsaracen
Submitted on 2009/05/15 at 10:50am
Ok another question. This time with regards to fin setup. I thought that this would be an appropriate place because we’re talking about the Dominator which has slots for 5 fins. My question is:
When considering fin setups for the dominator you could set it up as a thruster, quad, bonzer, (fish?). How do the fin placements and angles of the Dominator compare to your boards that are dedicated thrusters/quads/fish?
Bonzers usually have channels that drive the water from the center of the board through the 5 fins. Is the Dominator design even feasible to set up as a bonzer?
Im guessing that fish fins are at angles that are a little more parallel to the center line of the board than thruster plugs. Is it feasible to set it up with FCS keel fins?

MarkP
Submitted on 2009/05/15 at 2:46pm
We never designed the dominator as a 5 fin specifically. The rear plugs are really for the thruster option. The quad fin set up has 7.5 degrees of cant on the front fins and 2 degrees on the rear set. the tow in is our usual quad angles.

I cannot comment on the bonzer channels etc, but I did surf mine with keels once. Front side was amazing but I struggled backside. At the end of the day the dominator is going to work best as a quad or a thruster if you use slightly bigger fins than a regular thruster at the same length. I know guys using other quad set ups than the Stretch set we spec’d with great results. Seems the overall design is pretty versatile. .

With the custom program, any chance glass on fins may finally be an option? Majority of top level pros ride glass ons (TB included, I wish I could hire ninjas to hijack one of those boards). You can make them for him, why not put a $$$ sign on it and let people buy EXACTLY what they want. I've been eyeing Firewires for a long time, just really not too excited about fins systems (haven't ordered a board with fins system in last 4 boards), and honestly have not purchased a firewire yet because of the fin system issue. I have a buddy who rides glass ons, just recently bought a Firewire and was mostly stoked, but said given the option, would have PAYED MORE for the same board with glass ons. Don't make it difficult for people to give you their money.

Thanks!

Truth of the matter it's a major pain in the butt and increases shipping costs as they take up more space and have to be packed differently to protect the fins. Moving towards customs is a big deal for FW due to the complexity of our boards so this is one variable that won't be offered just yet. Sorry about that.

However I'd argue that the increased performance of our tech will blow away a comparable shape center stringer PU board with glass ons, so you have to consider the complete board not just one aspect of it.

You said "Offered just yet". So there's HOPE. Just joking. I'll have to see about those ninjas though...

Thanks for the prompt answer Mark, I have one more question. This forum is huge and I've searched it for a while, and couldn't find the answer. If I'm repeating someone elses question I'm sorry. Is the Taj model available with Future fin systems or is FCS the only option?

Thanks again Mark

All boards can be ordered both ways. You might need to specially request one through your local retailer. We only just switched to offering both Futures and FCS across all models, so there might be a lag before a Taj model shows up with Futures.